
Whole No. 14,867.
New York City, May 6, 1877.
Three Cents.

INTERVIEW WITH BRIGHAM YOUNG.
Cedar City, April 30 1877. -- Having received at Salt Lake on the 12th inst., a telegram from Brigham Young, saying,
"If you come quick you will find me at St. George," I started early next morning on the journey leading in that
direction, across the vast deserts, over the wintry divides and through canyons of Southern Utah. A second dispatch
apprised me on the way that the President would leave St. George for the north before I could possibly arrive there.
Cedar City, the remote little Mormon settlement from which this letter is written, was appointed as the place of meeting.
Here at the foot of an enormous mountain, looking westward across a desolate plain toward the scene of the Mountain
Meadow massacre and of John D. Lee's execution, I was welcomed this morning at the home of the the hispitable Mormon
Bishop Henry Lunt. Late in the afternoon President Brigham Young and his party, in a train of five carriages, drawn by
four mules or horses draw up at the Bishop's home. As evening descended lights shot through the windows from the broad
fireplaces within, and a supper was spread in the dining room amid sounds of jollity and cheer.
Shortly before eight o'clock, having returned from a long walk, I entered the house and was introduced to John W. Young,
who prepared the way for my audience with his father, the President. Crossing the hall, he led me into a large or grand
room. beaming withlight from logs of pine and cedar, and containing a small and distinguished company. Near the walls
sat or stood several Mormon elders of this and neighboring districts. In front of them two or three bishops were seated.
Grouped around the centre table were several of the most elevated dignitaries among the latter day priesthood. John W.
Young, First Counsellor of the President, took a seat with his back to the fire, looking as handsome, as wise and amiable
as he is really known to be. Brigham Young, Jr., was not present, being conifined to his bed by illness. To the right of
John W. Young sat Daniel H. Wells, Vice President, his great head, iron gray hair and beard and resolute features making
a picture of themselves. Wells was one of the earliest Mormon emigrants across the plains from Nauvoo, and has since
been among the strongest defenders of the latter-day faith. He commanded the Mormon army which checked the advance of
Johnson's troops, 1857-58. Opposite Wells lounged in his overcoat, and at his accustomed ease, George Q. Cannon, First
Apostle of the church and Delegate of the Territory to Washington. His face glowed with a benevolent expression and his
manner showed all that politeness which is natural to him. In the furthest corner and in shadow, however, sat the most
commanding person in the room. Brigham Young never looked more thoroughly like the patriarch that his people love to
call him than he did on this occasion. His tall, broad form was enveloped from shoulder to feet in a robe or cape of dark
cloth generously edged with fur, a glimpse of the red lining of which showed from a corner turned up over his shoe> He
wore a hat of peculiar shape, yet not unbecoming to his looks or to denote his dignity. Under his pale and pleasant face
was revealed a spotless cravat, and the huge collor of silver fox which flared away from his throat and back behind his
head set off his features finely.
My reception in the "Grand Room" was graceful and hearty, and after I had been introduced as "Mr. ____," who represents
the New York Herald, I was placed in the vacant seat at the centre table.
The followitng conversation then took place, lasting without intermission nearly three and a half hours. I opened it by
describing as accurately as I could the excitement, in the East and West, caused by recent developments in regard to
the Mountain Meadows massacre, and the strong disposition evinced in some quarters to fix responsibility on President
Young. I instanced especially Lee's testimony respecting George A. Smith, one of the twelve apostles at that time, whom
Lee asserts went forward ahead of the Arkansas emigrant company, preaching against them and and stirring up the feelings
of the people against them, until the timee was ripe for their destruction.
Brigham Young -- George A. Smith visited this whole southern region regularly, and held meetings as we are doing
now. In fact he was the founder of Parowan -- the first settlement to the north -- on his way home northward. This was
the year of the massacre. They met the company of the Arkansas emigrants not far from Fillmore. It was at Meadow Creek,
I believe. Some of the emigrant company came up to him and passed some remarks inquiring about the roads &c. Brother
George A. Smith gave them all the desired information. Some of the cattle belonging to the company
died, which they poisoned, and from the effects of the poisoned meat some of the Indians who found and consumed the
carcases died. These carcases also poisoned some springs. This raised the wrath of the Indians.
Here President Young turned to Daniel H. Wells, his second counsellor, saying, "Brother Wells, do you
remember if Brother George A. was down here at that time for any thing special?"
Daniel H. Wells -- No, sir, he was not. He was preaching in the settlements between here and Salt Lake, as we
usually do. He had part of his family living in Parowan, having built a residence there, and his being here was only one
of several visits.
Brigham Young -- Brother George A. Smith's testimony in regard to this is published to the world, and I believe
it to be true. It can be found among Howard's reports. George A. Smith knew no more about that company or about their
being interfered with than you did in New York. Had he possessed that knowledge I would certainly have heard of it, for
he would have told me of it. He knew nothing about the company until he met them on his return north near Fillmore. There
was at that time no telegraph line running down here; no mails were carried to Utah. The United States government had
stopped the mails, and we had no mails running from settlement to settlement as we have now.
Correspondent -- The conviction is settled in the east, especially by the testimony on the Lee trial, that there
was some powerful direction of the part taken by the whites in the massacre. This conviction has strengthened by the
statements in Judge Cradlebaugh's speech.
Brigham Young -- There is no doubt that the affair was directed by John D. Lee, and he evidently was a white
man.
Correspondent -- It appears incredible to outsiders Lee would have undertaken a task like that on his own
responsibility; the responsibility attaches in their opinion, to the Mormon Church, even to its highest individual
officers.
Brigham Young -- My disposition is such that had I known anything about it I would have gone to that camp and
fought the Indians and white men who took part in the perpetration of the massacre to the death, rather than such a
deed should have been committed.
J. W. Young -- John D. Lee in his testimony, says he informed President Young of the affair when he visited
Salt Lake City. I happened to be present when he came in father's office, and I was present during the interview. He
commenced to relate the circumstances of the Indians killing the emigrants, but did not intimate a single word about
the whites taking part in the killing. When he commenced to speak of the manner of the deed father stopped him, saying
that the rumor which had already reached him was so horrifying that he could not bear to hear a recital of it
Brigham Young -- I never knew the real facts of this affair until within the last few years. I myself proposed
to Governor Cumming, who came here soon after the massacre, to render him and Judge Cradlebaugh every assistancein
hunting up the perpetrators and bringing them to justice, and if Mr. Cradlebaugh knows anything about this affair he
must know that to be true. That proposition was made in the spring of 1856 [sic - 1858?].
Daniel H. Wells -- There are plenty of witnesses to that, for I heard him make it in public.
Correspondent (to Brigham Young) -- What of your own experience as Governor and ex-officio Indian Ggent at the
time?
Brigham Young -- Governor Cummings took it away from me. This point too was difficult to reach from Salt Lake, and
besides, according to the rumors that reached us, the people thought themselves that they would do well if they escaped
the vengeance of the United States troops. The burden of these rumors was that the Mormons were to be massacred.
Correspondent -- To what do you ascribe the massacre?
Brigham Young -- If you were to inquire of the people who live hereabouts, and lived in the country at that time,
you would find, if it should be according to what I have heard, that some of this Arkansas company boasted that they had
the promise from the United States that the Mormons were to be used up by the troops, and that they had boasted, too, of
having helped to kill Hyrum and Joseph Smith and the Mormons at Missouri, and that they never meant to leave the Territory
until similar scenes were enacted here. This, if true, may have embittered the feelings of those who took part in the
massacre, and the probabilities are that Lee and his confreres took advantage of those facts and the disturbed state
of the country to accomplish their desires for plunder, which under other circumstances would not have been gratified.
Correspondent -- Have you an opinion of Klingensmith's testimony?
Brigham Young -- I do not know anything about it.
Correspondent -- How was it that Lee was at last and not at first, convicted by a Mormon jury?
Brigham Young -- the supposition is that there was not evidence enough against him at the first, that there was
sufficient evidence against him at the last trial, and that the people of Utah could not obtain justice with any other
jury.
Correspondent -- considering that your people believe thaey get their inspiration through you, do they not
consider themselves responsible to you for their acts? What excuses them for crime?
Brigham Young -- what causes me to steal or commit any sin? Do I prompt them? No; but the devil and his agents
do. All evil doing is to our covenants and obligations to God and to one another as members of the Church.
Correspondent -- Do you believe in blood atonement?
Brigham Young -- I do, and I believe that Lee has not half atoned for his great crime. The saviour died for all
the sins of the world by shedding his blood, and then I believe that he who sheds the blood of man wilfully, by man
shall his blood be shed. In other words capital punishment for offenses deserving death, according to the laws of the
land. And we believe the execution should be done by the shedding of blood instead of by hanging. If the murderers of
Joseph Smith were to come to me now, giving themselves up, I would not feel justified in taking their lives, but I would
feel justified in having them taken to Illinois and there tried for murder.
Correspondent -- Recurring to the Mountain Meadows massacre, you are satisfied that Lee could not have received
any previous intimation from the north as to what might be done in the cease of the Arkansas company who were coming down
from Salt Lake?
Brigham Young -- None that I have any knowledge of and certainly none from me.
Correspondent -- You did not give any direction whatever as to the disposition of the emigrants' effects?
Brigham Young -- I knew no more about them then you, nor do I to-day. I have heard that they have been made use
of, which I suppose is correct, Klingensmith, who was a Mormon and an acting bishop, [I suppose] shared in the spoils,
and because he held such a position it is believed that the Church used it
Correspondent -- Was he the Church?
Brigham Young -- No, he was only a poor miserable sinner.
Correspondent -- In this southern country do the Bishops exercise the functions of Justices of the Peace?
Brigham Young -- I do not know that any of them do; and if any do it is not because they are bishops, but because
they are elected justices according to the laws of the land.
Correspondent -- The Mountain Meadows massacre was so unique that many curious questions are asked in regard to
it -- for instance why were the Indians angry against the Arkansas emigrants only? Other emigrant parties were passing
through the country and were not molested.
Brigham Young --As I understand it, for poisoning the water and poisoning dead cattle, which some of the Indians
afterwards are of and died. I would, however, refer you to the settlers of Crow and Meadow creeks, who lived there at
the time.
Correspondent -- Is it true that George A. Smith advised the people not to sell their grain?
Brigham Young -- We have been scarce of breadstuffs, and the nature of his counsel was not to use their grain for
feeding animals, neither to sell it to emigrants for that purpose; but no such word was ever uttered by him not to sell
it for breadstuff. We have always made a practice of selling wheat and flour to the emigrants for food ever since we came
here and I will say that I am at the defiance of the world to prove that the heads of the Church had anything to do with
the Mountain Meadows massacre.
Correspondent -- with regard to Haight and Higbee. Have you anything to say as to their reasons for getting out
of the country?
Brigham Young -- No sir. I presume however, they are trying to evade the law
Correspondent -- You do not consider yourself in the least degree responsible for them?
Brigham Young -- No, sir; not any more than Mr. Beecher or any man of your city is.
Correspondent -- It is understood at the East that the Mormon Church is a structure far more closely cemented
than this would imply -- an exclusive organization, standing in the midst of the continent, and governed from the head
downward by a system which renders its leaders peculiarly responsible for the people over whom they preside?
Brigham Young -- If the people over whom I preside do as I tell them to do there never would be such occurrences.
But if a member of our church lies, cheats, steals or kills his neighbor, Brigham Young is not responsible for his evil
acts any more than, if a Catholic were to kill, the Pope of Rome would be responsible for his crime. I am responsible
only for the doctrines I teach; but I cannot make people do right unless they choose to. I am responsible for no man's
acts save my own.
Young Person (in shadow) -- Then under no circumstances does the power of the President of the Church of the
Latter-day saints extend so far that men's lives are at its mercy. For example, were you today to say, "Let such a
person be killed," would the wish be in any instance compililed with?"
Brigham Young -- If I were to say. "Kill this or that man," I myself would be a murderer; or to say, "Take such
a person's money," I would be a highwayman.
Correspondent -- Yet, is it possible that such a thing could be?
Brigham Young -- It never has been tried.
Correspondent -- I want to find out what is the power of the Mormon Church.
Brigham Young -- The church has no power to do wrong with impunity any more than any single individual.
Correspondent -- Yet we know, do we not, Mr. President, that such power has been exercised in the world's history?
Brigham Young -- You ask a question that does not apply to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Daniel H. Wells -- Judge Brocchus once said that if Brigham Young "had crooked his finger," &c. he (the Judge)
would have been torn to atoms; but all there was to that was, President Young did not crook his finger.
Correspondent (to Brigham Young) -- what of the alleged order of Danites?
Brigham Young -- That is all folly.
Correspondent -- Then as to the extent of the temporal power of the Church?
Brigham Young -- It extends only as far as membership is concerned. I may, however, advise a man how to build or
improve his garden or field, and if he chooses to he may either receive it or reject it without involving his fellowship.
Correspondent -- Does not the temporal government of the Church in extreme cases, assume the functions of courts?
Brigham Young -- We have what we call bishops' courts, which to referees in ordinary cases of business, and in
cases of disagreement between members or immoral conduct. From these courts cases may be appealed to our High Council,
which consists of a president, two councillors and twelve members. Their power extends no further than membership in
the Church is concerned.
Correspondent -- How far does the authority of the Church go in dealing with cases of apostacy?
Brigham Young -- We have nothing to do with them; we let them seriously alone. They say the Church authorities
injure them. They lie. We have no dealings at all with such men, for their acts prove their unworthiness of membership
in our Church.
Correspondent -- How do protect your faith outside influences -- how do you keep it isolated?
Brigham Young -- We are different from all other Christian sects. We are believers in the Bible, as well as all
the revelations the Lord has given to the children of men, as contained in the Old and New Testament, Book of Mormon,
and Book of Doctrine and Covenant, and also what he reveals through his authorized servant when speaking or preaching
under the influence of the Holy Ghost. When a man speaks by that spirit it is revelation, and if his hearers are
possessed of the same they are able to judge of the correctness of what he says. Job says, "There is a spirit in man,
and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth him understanding." This is what I refer to. The object of my labors among
the people is to get them the truth, and the whole truth, as it has been revealed. And they must live so that this good
spirit can bear witness to them. Were it otherwise I might deceive them; but as long as they have this spirit no man
can deceive them.
Correspondent -- You, like the old prophets, receive direct revelation from God?
Brigham Young -- Yes, and not only me, but my brethren also.
Correspondent -- Does that extend to all the Church without reserve or rank?
Brigham Young -- Yes, and it is just as necessary for the mother to possess this spirit in training and rearing
her children as for anyone else.
Correspondent -- It is not absolutely necessary, then, that each person receive revelation through you?
Brigham Young -- Oh, no; through the spirit of Christ, the Holy Ghost; but to dictate the Church is my part of it.
Correspondent -- And your authority to dictate is given directly by heavenly inspiration?
Brigham Young -- Yes, I can relate a little circumstance which explains that and which may be interesting to you.
When I, with others of the Twelve, was sent to England on a mission in the year 1840, I frequently asked Joseph Smith
how we should do this and that? Said he: -- "Brother Brigham, I want you to understand doctrine as it is. When you reach
England the Lord will teach you what to do, Just as he teaches me how to act here." This I found to be verily true.
Brother Heber C. Kimball and I started on that mission in poor health, without money and without clothes. My family, too
were sick and but poorly off, we having been driven from our houses in Missouri. We started from Terre Haute and
travelled to Ohio; every place I stopped I found money in my trunk, and our expenses only amounted to $86, and as I live
I had no more than $13.50 when I started. I have one gratification --- when I tell people that anything is true, they
know it is true just as well as I do.
The prophet whose massive figure occasionally swerved and trembled in its seat in the shadowy corner I have spoken of,
lifted his face and both his hands with this last utterance, making an impressive and reverent gesture.
Correspondent -- If all members of the Mormon Church are thus endowed with divine vision, how is it possible that
any number of Mormons could have brought themselves to the commission a crime as the Mountain Meadow massacre, if they
did not find an excuse for doing so in their own faith, or if they did not believe it would be approved by the Prophet?
Brigham Young -- Because the men who did it were wicked.
Correspondent -- What defect is there in the organization of your Church that it allowed the prepetration of that
deed to go without instant punishment?
Brigham Young -- That was a matter that pertained to the law of the land. That alone inflicts punishment. There
is no defect in the organization of the Church -- the defect was in those who took part in the massacre. The laws of the
land are good, but still men do not always keep them. The Saviour says that "the wheat and the tares will grow together
until the harvest." If we had none but good men among us such sad experiences would never happen, but because we have
some wicked men, should we be blamed for their actions?
Correspondent -- Were not some of the men who figured in the massacre chiefsin your Church?
Brigham Young -- Lee was a farmer among the Indians, but held no presiding office. P. K. Smith however, was an
acting bishop.
In regard to the participation of the Indians in this affair, the following conversation took place --
President Young -- When I was at St. George, General C. C. Rich of Bear Lake, told me that he met part of this
company in Salt Lake City; he had just come in from California, having traveled this southern route. And talking with
me he told me that he advised them to go north, and he believed they went as far north as Bear River. They returned,
saying they would take the southern road. They lay idle over six weeks, when they should have been traveling, and when
they moved they moved slowly; and it was believed, for they said it themselves, that they were waiting for the arrival
of the army. It was very noticeable that they did not hurry along like other emigrants.
Daniel H. Wells -- And that company, remember, was not in the Territory when George A. Smith left Salt Lake to
make his southern tour. How then, could he, as has been said, kill the people by arousing a malicious feeling against the
emigrants -- saying they poisoned springs &c. -- at a time when the emigrants were hundreds of miles away, when he had
not seen any of them, and no one knew any of their names, and when the emigrants themselves had not yet determined upon
their route through Utah? Parties travelling to California either take the northern route, by way of Bear River, or the
southern route, which they took. As for the advice about not selling grain, that was founded on a principle having no
particular reference to individuals or classes. When he went back to the city Brother George A. Smith met these emigrants
at Meadow Creek, as the President has stated. They were afraid of the Indians, and they came to him asking if he was not
afraid of Indians, and he answered no, and then they turned out their horses too at Meadow creek. He was informed of the
conduct of these emigrants in Utah also; that one Indian had died from the effects of eating poisoned meat, and that
they had tied one Indian to a wagon, kept him there some time and whipped him, which made them mad. Of this be true, and
I have no reason to doubt it, what could we do about it? We had all we could do ourselves to keep peace with the Indians
at that time, in 1856 and 1857. Our crops failed, and from that time more or less until now have the people been
counselled to care for their grain, and not dispose of it unless in case of necessity.
Brigham Young -- The thousands of emigrants that have passed through here can testify that we have always sold
food to them, even in times of over-scarcity. And although I have been offered $1 a pound for flour, I have never taken
from them more than the ordinary price.
Daniel H. Wells -- The truth about this Mountain Meadows massacre, sir, is that it was the
result of a combination of circumstances such as will probably never exist again in any country. Your people at the East
cannot understand it in all its aspects though they maay be able to understand some of them. Even the people west
of us who occupy a country similar to our own have blinded themselves in a great degree to everything which would give
them an acccurate view of the affair. Our previous history, the condition of our people and their crops
at the time, our relations with the Indians and the extraordinary news and rumors which accompanied the simultaneous
advance on Utah of Harney's United States army and the Arkansas emigrants -- these things ought to be looked at carefully,
and examined before a great people are censured and a great church is prejudged according to the perjury of a few wicked
members. The previous exodus of our people had taught them what a threat from the United States government to
drive them from any ground they had chosen might lead to. They had been expelled from Missouri and Illinois by thousands
and from other states by hundreds within the recollection of the majority of adults then living, and forced to travel
across the American desert under circumstances and against obstacles which would certainly have subdued the courage of
communities whose members are not upheld by a religious faith or "fanaticism," superior [to] selfishness or pride. Every
one of those wagon trains and handcart trains and mule pack trains which brought the early Mormons, and the later, away
up and over the Rocky Mountains to the Pacific slope, brought those and only those who were anxious to escape from the
dangers and unhappiness they had endured in the East and to find on the whole continent of America that solitary place
for settlement which was never likely to be invaded by other peoples, while the surrounding and fairer portions offered
so many advantages to agriculture, mining and other pioneer pursuits.
we came here, in fact, because we believed nobody else would want to come here. We were willing to go through and we did
go through weeks months and years of privation and self-denial such as I honestly believe were never endured by a
Christian community. But now we had made the desert to blossom; established ourselves, in fact. Our possessions were
surveyed, known and understood to us. We had numerous settlements thriving towns and villages, cities, even. Though the
climate had caused us temporary disaster we were proud of our increase and of our improvement. At such a juncture we had
heard news of Harney's advance upon us; that unauthorized advance which, as you know was subsequently repudiated by the
United States government. After the many years since we left the States, mutual struggles, sufferings, helpfulness,
extending through the period of planting and forming Utah itself, all of the settlements in the Territory had been
informed that the United States army was again advancing to drive them out of it into some other place, perhaps to
destroy them all together. Many Eastern gentlemen well recollect the fury that flamed when that news entered Utah. Our
folks were desperate. It seemed they had nowhere to turn; every one prepared to resist; there was not a man, woman or
child who was not for resistance. Now, when it was whispered, and it soon began not only to be
whispered, but asserted, that these Arkansas emigrants were leagued with the soldiers, and that some of them had been
engaged in the murder of Joseph and Hiram Smith, at Nauvoo, the air might have seemed almost as heavy over Lower as it
certainly was over Northern Utah. Everybody remembers how the people behaved when ordered out by President Young
to prevent Johnson from entering the Territory, at what might have seemed to another man a most dismal moment of his
career, the President issued an order which, while it obliged us to burn forage in advance, set fire to the grass at
night, carry off animals and do various other things to hold back the enemy, absolutely forbade a single man to shed
a drop of blood.
I remember when a young officer of my command was captured by one of your troops, a wallet
found on him contained an order to him, signed by me, on the back of which was the usual inscription, "Shed no blood."
That order was taken first to Johnston and was afterwards taken to Washington, and brought out in the famous debate of
the next session. When the Arkansas emigrant company passed through Utah, and were in many parts forgotten almost as soon
as reported, there seems no doubt that much of the disgusting and blasphemous braggadocio with which many of the men were
charged must have been very aggravating at the time. This impression I receive of course, from what I heard long years
after. There may have been some settlement scuffles on the route -- profanity and ribaldry arrayed against each other
perhaps; and the emigrants' greater height and strength warranted him in almost any kind of domineering.
But I don't believe that eyen a man like Lee -- old, crafty, experienced and sympathetic as he was --
could have got together a force of Mormons in all Utah to do deliberately, knowing that they went to do it, the deed that
John D. Lee, perhaps a crony or two and a lot of dupes and thieves and savages under his command, are actually proven to
have done in that dark valley.
General Wells having spoken for some ten minutes as vehemently and forcibly, some one said, as he ever did in his life,
your correspondent found, by a nod from President Young that he was at liberty to proceed
Correspondent -- Do foreigners generally admire your system of organization?
Brigham Young -- Yes; only excepting their surprise that each man is responsible for his own acts. A gentleman
from Pennsylvania who greatly admired our organization, when he was about to leave asked me it I believed the Mormons
were perfect. The question was so absurd that I had to laugh. If we were perfect we could not remain here on the earth;
while we ourselves are imperfect the doctrines wwee teach are perfect.
Correspondent -- could the Church ever have accepted from John D. Lee the explanation that he murderedthe emigrants
at Mountain Meadows to shed their blood for the remission of their sins?
Brigham Young -- No; that expresses the same old folly of our enemies. Many men do wrong and afterward repent and
become, perhaps, even better men than they were before. Peter did wroung in denying the Saviour, but still he repented
and became a great and good man. Anybody may lean over church walls after thorough repentance and, forsaking their sins,
may return to membership
Correspondent -- after the faces I have seen and the hospitality I have experienced in Utah, Mr. President, I don't
think I need inquire particularly at this late hour about your present system of polygamy.
Brigham Young -- I do not believe in polygamy -- the definition of which means a plurality of wives and husbands;
but I do believe in polygyny, which means a plurality of wives.
Correspondent -- What is there to warrant the saying that the of polygamy has a tendency to check the growth of
intelligence?
Brigham Young -- The most satisfactory proof that such a saying is untrue would be to attend either day or Sunday
schools. Look at one particular effect of it -- see how it assists child-women. A woman in child-bearing should not
cohabit with her husband, and neither should she exhaust her strength in any other way. This order of marriage, when
carried out according to its laws, is the very highest order of marriage. Scientific men who have visited us say that
if we adhere faithfully to our order of marriage there can no question that we can have the finest race of people on the
earth. We believe, too, in all learning to work and being industrious; and that every man and woman should have the
opportunity of developing themselves mentally as well as physically. In the present condition of the world this privilege
is only accorded to a few.
Correspondent -- Do you know anything about the origin of what is called the Spaulding story
which has said to be in reality the origin of the Book of Mormon?
Brigham Young -- I will tell you all I know about it. Joseph Smith and I were born in the same State, and though
unacquainted we lived near each other. And years before I was a "Mormon" I read in the newspapers befored persecution
arose against him, that a young man by the name of Joseph Smith, living near Palmyra, had it revealed to him by an angel
where there was a record concealed of the aborigines of our country. And who knows (it said) but what the Indians will
have a bible as well as the Jews in Palestine? This was in 1819 [sic], long before the Spaulding story
arose, which has often been proven false and eleven years before the church was organized.
Correspondent -- The people of the East are anxious to know something of the agreement with the women in polygamy.
Brigham Young -- It is none of their business no more than it is our business to inquire of them what agreement
they make. I have been a protector of virtue all the days of my life.
Correspondent -- How could the women consent in their hearts to share the same husband?
Brigham Young -- we believe that the plural order of marriage is true, and the truth is just as applicable for
woman as man. I dare say there are men to-day who wish they had another wife; and there are single women who wish they
were married to such and such a man. This is without any regard to divinity. And if the law of the land did not prevent
men from marrying more than one wife, there would not be to-day so many thousand old maids in the State of Massachusetts.
Plural marriage appeals to noblest feelings because we regard it as a divine principle. It is carnal gratification; if
it were we need not go to the expense of keeping and educating several families, for we might adopt the cheaper and more
popular way. It is the highest state of social moral society, and will sooner or later be recognized as such.
Almost a Confession from Brigham Young.
The Mormon Colonel William H. Dame, indicted for participation in the cruel Mountain Meadows massacre, is preparing
to face justice in a somewhat startling manner. Our correspondent at Salt Lake City telegraphs that Colonel Dame has
issued an order to the officers of his regiment for drill and inspection of arms, an election of officers and the
filling up of the ranks of the regiment. He reminds us of the course of a Calaveras county rough, as related by his
friend and fellow murderer:-- "Jim Long was the quietest man you ever see; he just hated to be shooting people; but
when he saw the constnble coming to arrest him his feelings were hurt, and he just drew his revolver and shot him.
What else could he do? He couldn't run away."
We suppose the Mormon colonel, like Jim Long, cannot run away; he means to face justice, and he is getting his
revolver ready. In the Southern Mormon settlements our correspondent reports military preparations are particularly
active. Four boxes of breech-loading rifles were shipped to those parts last week from the co-operative store at
Salt Lake City -- "Zion's Cooperative Store" it used to be called on the sign -- and there are night meetings for
military drill in the city itself. Finally, Brigham Young has said that "the Mormons, who have been driven so far
and so often, will be driven no longer." If it is generally believed among the Saints that the Prophet Brigham has
said so much as this we advise Governor Emory to be on his guard. That the Mormons would have the folly to attack
United States troops directly we do not believe, but they are capable of desperate things, and Brigham Young and
the other leaders evidently dread a further investigation of the Mountain Meadows massacre. They gave up Bishop
Lee after vain but energetic efforts to save him, and they evidently imagined that this one sacrifice would quiet
justice. Now that they find that the great horror is to be further pried into by the courts they are desperate.
We print elsewhere a long and interesting conversation with Brigham Young and several other Mormon chiefs, held
with the Herald's correspondent on the 12th of April. The Mormon leaders talked very freely, as will be seen, and
while, of course, all of them denief any knowledge on their part or concern in the massacre of the Arkansas train,
a careful perusal of their statements does not decrease, but, on the contrary, seriously increases, the suspicion
that the dying confession of Lee, as made to our correspondent, is true, and that he was only acting under the orders
of the heads of the Mormon Church when he took part in the cruel massacre of the emigrants. They united, of course,
in imputing all the blame to Lee, who is dead. But they talked so freely that they entered into minutae which,
as we have said, confirm the suspicion that Young and the other Mormon chiefs could not but have known all about
the matter. We think it worth while to point out a few of these suspicious admissions.
John W. Young, Brigham's son, said to the Herald correspondent that he was with his father when Lee came to report the
details of the massacre, and that Brigham would not hear them. "Father stopped him, saying that the rumor which had
already reached him was so horrifying that he could not bear to hear a recital." Now, nobody who knows the thorough and
almost militnry organization of the Mormon colony under the dictatorship of Brigham Young, and the extremes to which
espionase was carried by him so as to give him an absolute command of his people, will believe that Young ever refused
to hear news, if it was news to him. If he refused to listen to Lee it was because he already knew all that Lee had to
tell him and did not mean to be further concerned in it. In those days and for many years later nothing, no trivial
incident, even, could happen in Utah without being brought to the ears of Brigham Young and his chief counsellors. They
interfered constnntly in all the affairs of their people. Young made himself their earthly Providence; they lived where
he placed them, planted what he told them to, moved away when he ordered them, bought and sold at his instructions -- as,
indeed, it was admitted to our correspondent that orders had gone out not to sell corn for feed to the emigrants. No
travellers could enter Utah without the knowledge of Brigham, and it the federal officers will investigate with sufficient
persistency they will discover that no one could leave Utah without Brigham's permission,
When Young, therefore, told our correspondent that he was merely the spiritual head of the Church, with no temporal authority,
and suggested that he was not rigidly obeyed, he related what must have made his Mormon listeners smile. But Daniel H. Wells,
who spoke at great length to our correspondent, made even more damaging admissions than Brigham Young. He spoke bitterly of
the persecutions the Mormons had suffered, of the Harney expedition which had been sent against them, of Johnston's expedition,
of the excitement of the people and of "the simultaneous advance on Utah of Harney's United States army and the Arkansas
emigrants" -- a very strange phrase when we remember that the federal troops were regarded with the bitterest hostility as
enemies of Zion, and the Arkansas emisrants "in league with them" were murdered at Mountain Meadows. When Wells added that
"it was whispered and soon began to be asserted that these Arkansas emigrants were leagued with the soldiers, and that some
of them had been engaged in the murder of Joseph and Hiram Smith at Nauvoo," we seem to hear not a denial of Brigham's
complicity in the massacre, but a plea in justification; and when Wells went on to describe the extent of Brigham's authority
and the abject obedience rendered him when he ordered the people to destroy their farms in order to stop Sydney Johnston's
advance, the picture he draws seems to us to prove positively that the massacre of the Arkansas train could not have occurred
without Young's permission. These are the remarkable words of Wells:-- "Everybody remembers how the people behaved when
ordered out by President Young to prevent Johnston from entering the Territory, at what might have seemed to another man a
most dismal moment of his career. The President issued an order which, while it obliged us to burn forage in advance, set
fire to the grass at night, carry off animals and do various other things to hold back the enemy, absolutely forbade a single
man to shed a drop of blood."
Anybody can see that Young could not afford to go to war with the United States; he dared not order an attack on the troops,
but on the Arkansas emigrants, their allies, as Wells says they were believed to be -- that was another thing. In short,
Wells and Young together seem to us to have made some very damaging admissions to our correspondent. We trust the
investigation of the massacre will continue. Young himself professes that to murder is agninst the Mormon religion. Very
well; if he is innocent of this murder he will not object to a full investigation. The arming and drilling of Mormon militia
look suspicious. Nobody here intends any injustice to the Mormon leaders. Is it justice they fear?
Notes: (forthcoming)
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